Episode: 371 • Duration: 01:02:36
We start our Halloween season and our Clive Barker series with Barker’s final directorial stints, Lord of Illusions. Production issues plagued this film much like Nightbreed, so we’re watching the director’s cut to ensure we get all the Famke Janssen action. We’re talking Antichrist themes, the excellent practical effects, and whether Scott Bakula is a good leading man.
We’re also drinking the new LL Bean collaboration with Harpoon on their fan-favorite Flannel Friday hoppy amber ale!
Stick with us all Halloween season for more Bobbing for Barker!
Hit that play button above to listen in.
Transcript – Bobbing for Barker (1) LORD OF ILLUSIONS (auto-generated)
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0:00
This September, hear the rattling of chains, see the master of illusions, experience the cabal of monsters, the purveyor of pain comes to Blood and Black Rum podcast this Halloween season with Clive Barker’s filmography in Thobbing for Barker.
0:24
Welcome to the Blood and Black Rum Podcast.
I’m Ryan from Colts plautation.com and I’m joining my Co host Mark.
How’s it going?
Where’s my egor to Doctor Frankenstein?
0:40
Oh, OK.
How’s it?
Going thank you.
OK, that’s that’s something.
Yeah, that’s Andy Richter.
That was blood, the last music higher, yeah.
As Egoire, funnily enough, we’re finally doing it.
0:56
We’re doing Blood, The Last Vampire.
You wish.
No, no, no.
But we are back for yet another Halloween season.
I don’t know how many this is now, 1313 Halloween seasons, something like that.
We’ve done them all throughout the years.
1:12
We’ve done them all and this, you know, we want to, we try to do things differently.
I think last year we did another like kind of just Halloween movies if I’m not mistaken.
We did ha ha Halloween.
That’s right.
That’s right, we did.
Comedies.
Comedies.
1:27
That’s right, whack you.
Know listen there, you know it’s stuck in your head because you’re like last year we did are we do.
Yeah, that’s right.
I, I forget.
I forget.
1:42
Like what?
You’re selling the product very well.
That’s true.
That’s true, yeah.
But you know, it’s the Halloween season when you hear that spooky music in the podcast background and and we’ve got the you know, the the artwork on the the podcast episode is is all spooky.
1:58
And you might notice that there is a particular writer, artist, slash director that’s featured in the podcast artwork.
And in the title of our Halloween season series, we’re talking about Mr. Clive Barker.
2:15
I thought it was a nice shamalong.
No, not this time.
Maybe, maybe next time, maybe maybe a Shamma Halloween or something like that.
So jot that down.
Note that for the next time, because we’re always trying to find those little punny things.
That’s a good one.
But no, this time we are doing Mr. Clive Barker because we are bobbing for Barker this time, you know, we didn’t want to do the exact same thing as like so creepy, it’s Carpenter and so Craven, it’s Cronenberg and stuff like that.
2:44
So a little something different.
In which you had to be pushed into.
It’s true.
It’s true.
You first pitched.
Yeah.
It’s so, you know, so creepy.
It’s Clyde Barger.
And I’m like, you can’t do that.
Can’t do the same thing.
3:00
Can’t do it.
Yeah.
So, yeah.
It was so creepy.
It’s Clive.
It was the initial pitch.
You didn’t like it, so we’re going with.
Creepy.
Well, if we didn’t do creepy for Carpenter, you could.
Don’t like Creepy Clive?
Like, yeah, the creepy crawlers.
3:16
Yeah, no, but we’re we’re doing bobbing for Barker.
So harkening back to the age-old Halloween tradition of bobbing for apples and watching Clive Barker movies.
Ash made in heaven.
So I guess let’s start out, you know, first episode of the series.
3:36
What do you know about Clive?
I say Clive because I know him personally.
Personally met him.
Great guy.
Just like, you know, Lars Hendricks and Pumpkin that you know.
That’s right.
Yeah.
Yes, I, I’ve met him digitally through Twitter.
3:54
Yeah, the Twitter.
Nothing.
Yeah, it’s, that’s what makes us experts in the field.
OK, I was.
Gonna say I was gonna say well, I like for Clyde Barker.
I I nothing all I know, but I know about the Hellraiser franchise.
4:11
I didn’t had I know what he looks like.
I’ve never seen any of the movies.
I know he wrote Candy Man and that’s the only movie that he’s like his hands on that I’ve seen.
Right.
We did candy made back in the day like a year ago.
4:29
I think so.
It’s not I don’t want like he just never like popped up.
I mean like on the things to watch for me.
4:44
I mean, granted, it’s not like I don’t think, I don’t think like any of these movies were ever on TVI think like maybe like a hell raiser every now and then, like one of the ones you know that he wasn’t associated with.
But sure, yeah, it is surprising that you’ve never seen Hell Raiser.
5:03
That’s like the one movie that if you know Clyde Barker, I would expect Hellraiser to be your entry into it.
And it’s so surprising, especially considering like Hellraiser was a huge part of my childhood from the video store.
5:23
I just like, you know, I remember seeing all the Hellraiser box art and just being very drawn to it even at that age, you know, I remember pretty pretty particularly Ting.
I don’t know, I don’t know if it was like the original Hellraiser or Hellraiser.
I think it was actually like Hellraiser 3.
5:41
I think it was hell on earth.
And I flipped it over and was looking at the back art and I was like holy shit this looks fucking gory and terrifying and I.
Remember the like, as I’m looking through like the posters on like Wikipedia for the movies, I remember the posters like walking through, you know, video world, you know, in the early 2000s with like the franchise being next to like ice cream man.
6:09
Yes, yeah.
Sure, you know.
Not really in the same realm of type.
Of.
Horror but you.
Know I mean but I mean yeah I mean like so like I don’t like I said it’s not something UPN was busy playing leprechaun the leprechaun movies for to torment me was true that was the.
6:28
Problem.
Because yeah, so you’re saying you never actively avoided anything but like at the same time just.
Never came, you know, came across the radar.
And I think like an interesting thing about Clyde Barker too, is that he’s not really known first and foremost for movies, right?
6:44
Like he’s only directed I think 3 movies.
We kind of talked about this off air.
He’s only really directed 3 movies.
He’s written a number of movies tangentially, like he inspired the movies by writing short stories or writing novels, but he’s not really known for his movie output.
7:06
And there’s a reason for that.
And actually there’s a reason why we’re starting with a couple of the movies that we are starting with to kind of talk about that a little bit and the reasons why he’s not known for movies.
But he’s generally known, I think like for for a lot of people in in literature, because he’s, you know, some of his output in books has been really influential in a way that like he, you know, he hasn’t necessarily hit the mainstream successes of something like a Stephen King novel, but at the same time has a lot of cult following due to the subject matter of his novels in the aesthetic that he brings to horror, which is like a very specific type of aesthetic.
7:50
It’s not, you know, it’s certainly not sanitized and it’s it’s certainly much more focused around the organized religion elements and BDSM then something like Stephen King, who’s, you know, you know, kind of writing from a very white main perspective, right.
8:08
I think that first and foremost, people know him as a writer.
Secondly, probably as an artist, you know, his his visual output is very compelling as well.
It has a certain aesthetic to it.
You know, his his actual art books and and things like that are almost as prolific as something like this sort of art books that would be put out for like Dungeons and Dragons.
8:34
That kind of reminds me of of just like the monster manuals almost is kind of like what Clyde Barker was putting out at the time.
And for a long time I found his artwork in pretty inspirational as like you conjuring a specific or ideal of horror.
8:52
So I think another big part of that is, you know, people know him as an artist.
He also you probably didn’t know this, He also has made a couple video games or, you know, like been involved in them, kind of written them.
I don’t know.
He didn’t like program them, but he’s been in a couple been involved in a couple video games, including Jericho, which was like one of my first Xbox 360 games.
9:16
Just fun to fun to know.
That was the first one that I completely platinum Dor got all the achievements in for Xbox.
So fun note there.
But anyway, what we’re talking about first is probably not the one that you’re expecting.
9:31
I was.
Going to say do they have agility orbs for you to collect?
No, no agility orbs, no, no, no, nothing like that.
The first one in our Bobbing for Barker series is probably not the one that you’re going to you were expecting though.
You’re probably expecting us to do Hellraisers since we’ve never done it before.
9:48
And sadly, you’re mistaken.
We’re not doing that one first.
I will not neither confirm nor deny it’s going to be part of this series, but based on how many the output of Clive Barker films, you can probably guess the first film that we’re doing is Lord of Illusions from 1995 and and what?
10:09
What’s that?
What’s the title?
Well, technically on posters, Clive Barker’s Lord of Illusions, which yeah, I think is kind of funny, but at the same time, I guess at this point in time, post Hellraiser, it makes sense.
10:26
It’s it’s they’re doing the Wes Craven and John Carpenter style thing.
But Lord of Allusions again I.
Think, I think, I think John’s like, listen, you’re British, go ahead.
You do you, British.
10:44
You do drawings.
I play ascent so.
There you go.
We’re slightly.
Different.
That’s right.
So Lord of Illusions is actually like Barker’s last directed film, and we’ll talk about that a little bit as we get into the movie.
11:08
But the reason that we wanted to do this one is simply because he directed it and it suffered from a lot of production woes.
As you know, the, the producers came in and we’re like, whoa, whoa, Clive, what’s going on in this movie here?
11:25
Like we can’t market this as well.
Hey, what are you doing?
We need to cut some of this, this, this, this fluff.
So ultimately what happened with Lord of Illusions and Night Breed, which came out like 4 years prior, is that the producers came in meddling and they basically were not really, I guess they didn’t really want to give Clive the full reigns to make a movie like he wanted to.
11:51
So ultimately what ended up happening with Lord of Illusions is that it was, it was cut down.
I think about 12 minutes were cut down from his original intention and they released that as the theatrical cut for this podcast.
We’re actually going to be doing the director’s cut.
12:06
We’re, you know, if we’re going to do bobbing for Barker, we’re going to do it right.
And we’re going to do the vision that he actually had for his film.
So we are going to be talking about the director’s cut specifically instead of the theatrical cut.
And we did, you know, Martin’s never seen a theatrical cut.
12:22
So there’s not really, you know, we’re not going to do like a ton of comparisons to them.
We’re just going to straight up talk about the director’s cut and how it is as a film.
So just to set that out there, I think it’s probably safe to say you didn’t know that much about A Lord of Allusions, right?
12:38
You never seen it, probably never heard of it.
Nope.
Guessing you never heard it.
It is pretty popular in terms of Clyde Barker output.
Also films.
Yeah.
Also to know that he did write a short story that this film was based on, but he also wrote and directed the film too.
12:57
So it’s all on Clive for this one.
I have probably read the story that it’s based on because it’s in Books of Blood.
I have read Books of Blood, but this was a very long time ago so I do not really remember anything about it.
13:13
And I don’t even quite know what the story is called because I don’t think it’s called Lord of Allusions.
Maybe it is, I don’t know.
So I I don’t think I’ve read the story.
I’ve only seen Lord of Allusions one time before this and I can’t remember if it was the theatrical cut or the director’s cut.
13:30
I just know I watched it at one point and it’s been quite a while.
So not a lot of it really stood out to me as things that I remembered about the movie.
And we’ll talk about that too, the the memorability of the movie.
So anything you want to add to the intro here as we talk about Clive and Lord of Illusions before we go into our beer?
13:54
Nope, I was like I said, didn’t I?
Don’t Totally unaware of this film’s existence.
Ignorant.
Totally ignorant and I didn’t like look into anything about it, Like I didn’t read like a synopsis or Wikipedia.
So I was going in completely virginal on this.
14:12
So you know.
Nice.
All right, well, let’s talk about the beer that we have on the show today.
And unfortunately, I will say it is a repeat.
We have had this one.
As a historian, I did go back and look into our our history and I found that we did cover this beer back in 2017, so almost 10 years ago now.
14:33
We did it.
And I thought, you know what, that’s fine.
Listen, listen, we’ve had almost every Oktoberfest that the store had, OK?
We’ve, we had it on the show.
We can’t, we can no longer guarantee that we can have new beers on every single episode.
However, the reason I picked this one was not simply because we haven’t had it in 10 years.
14:54
There are two reasons for it.
For one, it’s a Harpoon beer.
We’ve kind of talked about this on the show before Harpoon.
It’s kind of faded out of existence in our area.
We don’t get it a whole lot.
It’s not really widely distributed anymore up up here in New York.
And then secondly, this is technically a new beer because they’re bringing this back from a previous release and they’ve repackaged it to be a collaboration with LL Bean of all things, which I just find funny in general.
15:28
I mean, have you been in LL Bean, by the way?
Have you ever been in an LL Bean?
I have.
I’ve I have.
Never have.
Never like bought anything I don’t have.
Well, no, you don’t have that kind of money, OK, You don’t have that.
You know, car hot guy.
Yeah, You don’t have that kind of money to be spending on, you know, a $70 flame.
15:48
You know, I get you.
But I will say I’ve been in LL beans and I do find them very quaint and homey in a like like, hey, this is like a glamping sort of way, you know what I mean?
16:04
Like because it’s.
There’s the word of the episode Glamping.
Glamping.
What is glamping?
It’s like glamour camping, like you’re going camping, but you’re not like in an itchy bug infested tent.
You’re like, you’ve got like a nice like, you know, pavilion that you’re in with like glow lights and you know, you’ve got a little fire pit instead of like having to find rocks to make a fire with and stuff like that.
16:28
It’s it’s basically like glorified hotel that’s like somebody is put together for you.
So it makes it look like you’re camping and you might be semi outdoors.
Is I’ve never been glamping myself, but that’s my understanding of it.
16:44
And that’s kind of what LL Bean reminds me of.
It’s like going in there and like you can like, wow, I could really sleep out under stars in here, but I’m inside a mall, you know what I mean?
Like and it’s kind of, but I will say I find them cozy and they certainly have some cool flannels and stuff, even though it’s super expensive and I I’ve never bought anything there myself.
17:04
Say they’re based out of Maine, so that makes sense.
You know the, you know, the New England, it’s like when they dunk it the Dunkin, you know, beers.
You know, yeah.
So this is the Harpoon collaboration with LL Bean and they’re their beer that they’ve released previously is called Flannel Friday.
17:24
Like I said, we have had it on the show once before.
We kind of did it with another beer.
So we didn’t really give it like its own separate episode.
But this is the LL Bean version.
So it’s wrapped in a nice flannel, like literal green and white flannel to match the LL Bean colours because I think LL Bean is pretty much like green is their their flagship colour.
17:49
And I’ll let you go first.
How do you feel about Flannel Friday returning to it after 10 years?
I remember liking it and glad to be back, glad to be home because like the harpoon that we get around here, like they like when we like, as Ryan said, we critiqued it before.
18:11
Like they used, they once were like the brewery that was a go to for us.
But they’ve kind of like with Sam Adams and Saranac, you know, the qualities kind of gone downhill was the, you know, them getting bigger and the styles they’re putting out used out as interesting.
18:36
Like, you know, they started making, you know, 3 1/2 percent, you know.
Section.
Section, section, you know, beers and stuff and saying you know, it’s OK as they are.
I’m not paying $20.00 for, you know, 12 pack for that.
18:51
But so as I say, I’m glad to have it back ’cause this is really good.
And you wouldn’t think an amber rail that’s hopped, you know, and has a nice, you know, dry hoppy, you know, pininess too.
It would work, works well.
19:07
It’s great.
It’s nice and bready.
The malts are like kind kind of like remind me like an Oktoberfest and then you get like hoppiness and then like a nice crisp, clean finish like you know, you know, thin body and it’s not this is nice.
19:27
You know, surprised by the ABV on it 57 doesn’t feel it at all.
Listen, damn refreshing beer.
This would be great.
You know, by the bonfire, by fire, you know, making s’mores and.
Glamping your friends?
19:43
Yeah.
Like in a, like an LL Bean ad.
Yeah.
Yeah.
So it’s been a while since I’ve had Flannel Friday.
I, I remember liking it as well.
And I, I do agree.
I like it a lot here.
I think it is a very like, yeah, they’re calling it a hoppy amber.
20:00
And I mean, that to some extent I think is pretty accurate.
This reminds me quite a bit of the celebration now from Sierra Nevada.
And it also reminds me a bit of an ESB.
Put that in your your thoughts.
20:16
What do you think about that?
Do you agree?
Do not agree.
It’s been so long since I’ve had an ESB, I don’t have to.
Yeah, it just kind of reminds me of an ESB.
I think it’s really good.
It’s really refreshing, goes down smooth.
20:31
The hoppiness is great.
That little multi backbone is definitely something that you look for in a sort of fall type beer like this.
It’s kind of harkening to the getting chillier days, you know, wrapping up in a nice flannel.
I think it it’s, it’s a perfect encapsulation of what they’re going for with that idea of flannel Friday.
20:50
And I like it a lot.
I, I definitely enjoy the LL Bean collaboration here.
It’s kind of a unique and fun little take on it because now that everybody’s doing tons of collaborations, you know, Harpoon is done one with Dunkin too.
21:08
So it’s just it just makes sense and I like it and I like the can art.
It’s nice.
It’s very, very refreshing.
So yeah, check it out.
That’s flannel Friday is both in a 12 pack.
I definitely saw it there in its own 12 pack as well as the new fall pack, which the fall pack is kind of underwhelming.
21:29
It has the nothing new in it.
It’s got their the Harpoon Oktoberfest, it’s got the Flannel Friday, and then it’s got the Day Drifter IPA, which is what you were talking about, the Session IPA and their regular Harpoon IPA, which is their flagship beer that they put in pretty much everything.
21:44
And that’s kind of disappointing to me.
I was at least hoping for maybe one new change up there, you know, replace the The Day Drifter IPA with something else, right?
Unnecessary to be in the fall pack, but I got it anyway because I’m a sucker.
22:04
All right, let’s talk Lord of Illusions, the Clive Barker Director’s Cut.
I’ll let you.
I’ll let you go first.
Where do you want to start?
Wow, the opening really reminds me of John Carpenter’s Vampires Desert and you know.
22:24
Yeah, the they, they just call it the Mojave, right?
That’s just the Mojave Desert.
And Scott Bakula looking like James Woods.
Renowned Twitter asshole James Woods and this.
Yeah, that is true.
22:40
He really does.
You know, he’s got because he’s especially when he’s got like the wife beater gun holster thing going on.
It definitely looks like James Woods almost in like Videodrome James Woods, you know, Yeah, I agree with that.
I, I think you’re right, right on with the way that he’s looking.
23:00
Even before that, though, because they like you, you mentioned at the beginning we don’t meet Scott Bakula for probably like 15 minutes.
We’re we’re in media’s res at the beginning here.
Where they’re basically throwing us into this situation where it almost feels like the end of the movie, right?
23:17
It almost feels like, oh, it’s concluding like the here comes this guy who’s bald, you know, he’s he’s got a super high forehead and here he comes.
His name is Swan.
I love all the names in this movie too, by the way.
You know that it’s the most ridiculous noir esque names that Clyde Barker could come up with the the one main guy’s name.
23:39
But Kevin J O’Connor’s character is named Swan with two NS, not just one, but two.
The the one of the villains in this the the the almost like swarthy bisexual Butterfield.
His name is like he’s going to whip out a Turkey every now, you know.
23:58
Yeah, Swarthy.
Yes.
Fucking twink.
Yes, true.
Which is also funny we’ll talk about, but he’s like whooping ass as like a twink, like for kind of ridiculous and pathetic that he’s like he’s like like 59510 but like 110 like heavy like yeah, it’s like, you know, like Mortal Kombatting, like, you know, jumping on everybody.
24:21
Just like his thighs that are like, you know, probably, you know, it’s on the thigh master or anything.
I.
Do love how, yeah, that J Trevor Edmond plays this guy because it’s fucking actually.
No, that’s that’s his young self.
24:38
I should say that’s not that’s not the older Butterfield.
Yeah.
Barry Dale Sherman.
He’s first of all, I feel like this was a cast and they were the first thing when they were casting.
They were like, OK, put on the pants.
We got to see you in these pants.
24:54
And we’re like, why?
Why?
I’m here for the part, right?
I’m here for.
I’m here for a villain.
We got to see your cock, your ass and how you looking like it’s not velour or velvet, but it’s kind of like it for a shirt, you know, because it’s got like, you know, the tight yellow like spandex and then like, yeah, velvet, like, you know, T.
25:19
Shirt yeah, they’re like, we got to see if you can pull off a crop top and, you know, V necks and all that kind of thing.
And then he got the part.
But yeah, I I do love this whole very like, you know, sort of flexible and almost a joke like that.
25:35
He’s just using his like sinuous gayness to be like infiltrating people and like part of his part of his villainousness is just the fact that he like, he might sit on your face.
I don’t know, like, you know, just this is a possibility.
25:51
You just have to be careful.
Well, to be fair, Famke Jansen, who if you’re repeated listener on the podcast, you know.
We’ve done a few of her movies, yeah.
Love her.
Always a fan, always a big fan.
26:06
She was, I mean, well I’ll say same year Goldeneye.
Her gimmick as Xenia on a top is she crushes, kills the men that she’s sleeping with by, you know, wrapping her legs around them and.
You know, choking him out like a like a rattlesnake or something.
26:22
Yeah, but like, like a bow constrictor, but not like, you know, around the head, sorry, around the head, but like right around like the abdomen.
And you’ll get Famke Jansen even in like golden eyes.
Like she don’t have dies like that.
That’s like magic.
Like what the hell?
26:37
Wow.
Wow, you’re saying she doesn’t have the the thigh capability for that?
I’m not saying she doesn’t have the thigh capability.
I’m saying like, like, she’s not, doesn’t look like she’s built like, you know?
Yeah, like.
A like Norse like like like Norse stock from those like 11 hundreds like.
26:57
Sure.
Yeah, I mean, like the opening, like, again, like you can totally tell by like the setting and how it looks.
Definitely feels like candy, man to me, you know, like the way like everything’s like painted and looks.
27:16
It’s a really weird opening because you get like that title card that says like in a world where magic is real and the illusions and stuff, and it’s like, oh, OK.
Like, so like, you know, in this world, illusions, Matt, it’s real.
27:35
And all the stuff that’s kind of happening makes you feel like, OK, cool.
Like we’re in a world where everyone’s like fucking Harry Potter apparently.
Like, you know, like magic.
And, you know, it’s Levi you saw, not Levi you saw.
And it’s just this, like, really weird.
27:53
Like, OK, there’s a cult, the comedon from Malcolm in the Middle’s the the guy there and he’s making illusions he could put his fucking fingers into people’s heads.
And this is weird.
What the heck?
You know, as I was telling you, the ladies man’s there walking around with a fucking shotgun.
28:14
Why does he have the girl?
Like do they don’t even ever explain why the hell he’s got the girl locked up?
Why is there a fucking baboon or whatever the hell?
Because he’s a ultra villain, OK, You just have.
One like giant testicle or like like like slapping the girl.
28:34
Like it’s just really weird and just like psychedelic and you know, just way like, oh, like what the hell.
It’s not bad, but it’s an intriguing set up because it’s like what the hell?
28:49
OK, what’s this like illusion stuff?
And then after that it comes into war film, cry film.
Right, Yeah, I agree.
I think like the the opening is really in in I think on purpose, you know, it just sort of throws you in and it’s sort of like here piece all this together.
29:08
I do think that it’s interesting that it sets up this idea of like this world of like, it kind of almost makes it sound like, like people care about magicians more than they do, right?
Like I, I feel like a lot of people.
Hold on, they do in the 90s.
29:24
Right, that’s true.
That is true.
Because again, like, as we’ll talk about, like with other points of the film, it’s like the 90s Vegas showgirls, like, you know, like all this spectacle shit.
You are correct, yes.
29:39
In the 90s, this was a big thing, like especially in bigs.
I like again, right now, I would say most people, if you tell them in their daily life like, hey, you’re going to see a magician, they’re probably like, oh, OK, all right.
I mean, I guess so if there’s nothing else to do today, no offence to magicians, but it’s just not like, you know, it’s not super popular, at least anymore.
30:01
And so the film kind of plays it up and it’s like, hey, this is going to be all about music inclusions and and like, look how big magicians are at this time.
And I do think, you know, the idea is cool, but.
30:17
It throws me off because again, I think it would like having it open and it be like, this is the reality, right?
And then it’s switching to that noir style, what’s you know, and then everything’s like grounded, but like this is going on in the background like like I had like I had some like dissonance with it.
30:41
Like it doesn’t like quite click.
Sure.
Like I think like you should, they should have leaned in one way or the other.
Like is magic?
Do people actually think magic’s real in this because of all this shit?
Or is it like this, you know, yeah.
I think if you, if you wanted to do what they did, don’t have the title card, that’s like, you know, you know, we’re going to like, like you’re going to like a, what the hell.
31:09
Like I want to say like perestroika, but like, you know, like vaudeville.
Oh, sure, yeah.
You know, that type of thing.
Like, it’s not like a big deal, but it’s something that’s like, you know.
Yeah, I get that.
I get that.
This sort of like this muddling of themes of because it really does set it up.
31:28
And and I would say, you know, for a a small portion of the film, it does actually follow this idea of illusions and magic, right?
And that they’re two different things.
Illusions being trickery, it’s not real.
Illusions are things that you pretend are like it’s magic, but you’re not, it’s not real.
31:46
You, you know, you there’s a trick of the light or there’s a, you know, a little compartment where you put your feet so that you don’t get chopped in half for real.
And so that’s what they’re considering an illusion.
And then there’s the other side of that, which is almost crossing the line of like you, you can actually do magic and magic is, is the real thing.
32:04
And there’s this.
So it’s kind of sets up this idea for Swan, who is a almost what you would consider a disciple of the bad villain guy Knicks, played by Daniel von Bargain, who you said Malcolm in the Middle wouldn’t be the first role that I would.
32:21
It’s it’s George’s or it’s George’s boss.
It’s George’s boss from science.
OK, that’s let’s get that straight.
That, first and foremost is.
George’s boss.
I will not have you belittle Malcolm in the I I like Malcolm.
In the middle, but let’s not give Daniel von Bargain.
32:38
That’s, that’s not short shrift in here.
But you know, it’s, it’s, it’s George’s boss.
That’s, you know, ’cause I can’t I can never get enough of when in the fucking, you know, the Festivus episode when he brings the check in for the human fund and George is like, I could prove it.
I have to.
32:53
And David Von Bargain’s like, I think you you better.
This is a really good delivery in line of like rye humor.
So he’s really great at that.
But it it is nice to see him here in his like villainous role as Nix.
Right.
So Nix.
Is, I mean, like here, but here though, he’s more like his role in Malcolm in the Middle, when Malcolm in the Middle is the commandant of this is his military school.
33:18
He’s got an eye patch and a hoof, you know, for a hand and you know.
That is true, yeah.
Yeah.
Here he’s got all done up.
And you know, later on he’ll get into like this corpse paint, black metal sort of looking thing, but.
33:34
By the way, too, it’s not just him, I mean, because it’s not like his choice or anything, but like when anytime I see it in any type of film or anything or people in general, Listen, I’m not body shaming anybody, but I can tell you right now, my fat ass don’t ever like you.
33:52
Like you’re gonna have like a shirt that’s just like, you know, too tight and your guts hanging out like your fucking, you know, Carl from, you know, Aqua team.
You’re saying you wouldn’t do it?
No, you wouldn’t be able to do it like.
No, I like because it’s just like like it’s like just a look like yeah.
34:12
And you’re like that’s OK.
I I decided that’s OK You.
Know sure, let’s see where where was I going with this though?
So any.
Yeah.
So in the opening like and you have Nicks and Swan and you kind of get this idea that there, you know, Nicks is the you know, the major bad guy this this guy who wants to big basically bring the end of the world.
34:31
And you’ve got Swan who’s his sort of his disciple in magic, but has decided that he wants to be part of the good side eventually, you know it after they basically send Nixon to like this fugue state where he’s buried and can’t, you know, can’t be brought back to life.
34:49
Swan goes on to have like this magician career.
I think an interesting dynamic that the film has for probably like 30 minutes is the fact that, you know, Swan is a quote UN quote illusionist.
And there’s an interesting scene which I I don’t quite understand the dialogue here where he’s talking to fancy Jansen and he’s saying, you know, listen, I was doing the performance and, you know, what did the audience think?
35:12
Oh, they thought it was magic, that it’s real.
And he’s like kind of pissy about that.
And it’s like, I’m not quite understanding what he was looking for there.
Does he want people to not think it’s magic?
Are they like persuaded too easily?
I’m not really sure like that that the meaning of that kind of was lost on me there.
35:29
But.
I think, I think it’s because like when they talk about like, you know, magics, the real thing, and then the illusions, the trickery, I think like, you know, the trick or like, you know, and if you are like somebody who is like an actual like a magician illusionist in your life, you know, it’s the con, the art of like, you know, being able to create the illusion, the the effect, the trickery, you know, is what you know, that’s what matters.
35:58
And I imagine that’s probably, you know, something for him that probably.
Yeah, sticks in his craw because because he knows he can actually do it.
And they’re they’re they’re to see an illusion that they that they know is not real magic, but they come off thinking that it’s real magic.
36:15
Yeah, Yeah, I get that.
I think that you’re right on, though.
I can breathe.
Slender balls because I fucking stumbled upon a coat in the 80s.
Yeah, I I think you’re right on though, in the fact that it does sort of have a muddling of themes there because like, like we were saying for a long period of time, this film brings in Harry Damore, who is a long running Clyde Barker character.
36:41
It’s he’s he’s a investigator of like the parent.
Well, not necessarily.
He’s like a random detective who gets roped in like paranormal investigations and occult investigations and stuff.
His film kind of makes mention of that a little bit.
It’s like the more and you know, it shows that like exorcism that he performed is like, you know, he’s just a random detective that also did exorcisms on the side.
37:04
It’s.
It’s like 1 love the name.
It’s that’s great.
You know, like.
Hairy of love.
You know, you know, noir Max Payne shit right there.
The one thing I wish, especially because we did the director’s code, the film’s making an assumption that you’ve kind of have already been introduced to these characters in some form because like the way they can’t cover him, like, you know, with the exorcism is just a New York Post, like little splattering.
37:45
And then his like, you know, Alan Wake style flashbacks, like blah, blah, blah, like, you know, things going on.
And it’s like, is it real?
Is it not?
What the hell?
I don’t know why he’s got a big fucking back tattoo on him.
I had to look that up.
38:00
And it’s like, oh, you know, that’s like one of his character traits, you know, And like something that like, you know, that’s like protects him from magic and it’s like.
I I think it just looks like the lady with her legs open like a vagina tattoo, but because they don’t explain it, they’re.
38:18
Going to look it up by the end because I was thinking by the end like they’re going to have to.
Explain it, Yeah.
Because it’s 19941985.
Scott Bacula does not have a giant fucking just tattoo.
On his that’s why his name is Scott Bacula and not Scott Frontula.
You know, like, no one’s got a back tattoo like that just on a whim, like, you know?
38:41
Like, no, it was a one night in New Orleans and you know.
I was going to say the penis shots in here would be more, you know, proper than like him running around in the film with like a giant bag tattoo like.
So I’ll, I’ll make yeah, I’ll make mention of a couple things.
38:57
I don’t know that the back tattoo is actually in a theatrical car because a lot of those scenes were Scott Bakula is naked with his back showing got cut for the theatrical cut.
Like all the Famke Jansen, you know, riding was all cut.
39:14
A lot of like famkee without a bra on was cut.
So like the theatrical audiences back then were not teased and titillated like people who received the director’s cut.
Was this like owned by?
Like, I think the producer was like, you fucking whore.
39:31
I’ve you know.
Like, was this like Kevin Sorbo’s studio?
Yes, yeah, they took offence A.
Horror film.
And they’re like, no.
Whoa, whoa, wait a.
Second, hey, hey, hey.
You know that scene of her coming out of the swimming pool in her swimsuit like it’s, you know, Phoebe Gates from Fast Times?
39:51
That shit out here we don’t need.
That I do find it interesting.
But yeah, again, I don’t I don’t think a lot of those moments made it into the film.
So like you said, I don’t I don’t know that outside of the director’s cut if the the tattoo was in it.
So that is an interesting point.
And in something that like you’re saying like people who don’t know Clyde Barker’s body work don’t know Terry Damore at all.
40:11
And the director’s cut that sort of.
Almost lost on a lot of the audience in this.
Sort of like a inside thing.
It’s not a big deal.
And I saw that, Like I said, I don’t know if it’s trooper from like a little Wikipedia thing.
Scott Bakula’s the one that suggests that to me because it was like more like, you know, on point.
40:27
Yeah.
And so like, you know, to have him have that.
So I mean, like I said, it was cool.
But like, again, if somebody who doesn’t know a damn thing about, you know, Clive Barker’s works and Harry Demoore and all of this, it’s like, because you would think too, if that’s the case, I’ll get some like, helps protect him against the spells, you know, in mind.
40:50
Like, you know, you by the end with like, the stuff going on with, like him, you know, being like manipulated and single illusions like that could tie into it maybe.
Like, I was waiting for a payoff on that.
I was like the whole time.
Like, there’s got to be a reason.
41:06
Yeah.
We get to see this big fucking tattoo.
Like just keep.
Showing up there, you know.
You know.
Yeah, I mean, I get it.
Yeah.
Or like that this would be like an entry like if they were to do like Scott Bat and Scott.
But well, yeah, Harry Damore films of like this is like of him being like, you know, becoming going him like Private Eye to an actual paranormal detective, like like his first foray into it, like, you know.
41:32
Yeah, yeah, I definitely get that.
I do think that to some extent, Lord of Illusions, at least the director’s cut is a little bit muddled in the way that it handles things.
It does definitely want to be a noir film, you know, a neo noir.
It’s it definitely has that element going to it and I think to a certain extent it works pretty well.
41:50
You know, I think Scott Bakula does that all pretty well.
I think, you know, we having fancy Jansen in here is like sort of the femme fatale, which you’re not sure what her intentions are if or if she’s the one that’s really, you know, guiding him into his demise or not.
42:06
Is it is a nice touch here.
It almost has a tongue in cheek element to it too of like knowingly like this is kind of goofy in a noirway, which I think the.
Concert close up to her of like when she’s like in in despair or something, you know, like it’s like the one the couple of moments in this film where she’s not acting good or has like good facials because she’s like, you know, and it’s like frozen on her and she’s like, you know, and then like when it goes to like the next scene or something, she’s like having a normal conversation, acting normal.
42:39
I’m fine, but then I go like frightened.
Yeah, I mean, I agree.
I I think like I think it does the noir elements pretty well.
Where I think it kind of falls short is again, like we were talking about the the the magic versus illusion thing, which it runs with for a little while.
42:54
Like the heat even goes to this place, which is not a really great place if you’re trying to keep like layman out of it called Magic Castle.
Like literally sounds like a like a mini golf course or something that you know, like that they’re going to called Magic Castle.
43:11
And it’s just like this place where washed up magicians go to be like drink, drinking at the bar and saying, like, when I was there in Vegas, you know, we used to do things differently.
Walter Wilder looks like fucking like.
Is that supposed to be like a Stan Lee cameo?
43:28
Yeah, he almost does.
Yeah, he does really look like that.
Yeah.
Yeah, I noticed that too.
It does look like Stan Lee when when he got older.
I think like that element too is kind of interesting and it doesn’t really go much further than that.
Like it just kind of goes there and it’s sort of a a lead in to other areas where it’s it’s basically saying Swan is not just like this type of illusionist.
43:53
He he literally has magic.
He knows how to do magic and he’s not this type of guy.
And it leads them to this idea that Swan when he did his performance where it looked like he killed, he died.
He really didn’t die.
And I, I understand that, but I do feel like a lot of times the film gets lost on its own way.
44:12
And I do understand why producers came in and said, wait a second, like we might need to cut this down a little bit.
Because I do think the two hour director’s cut lingers a little too long on investigating and points that maybe could have been sheared down a bit.
44:31
I don’t know if you agreed, if you thought this was a little bit long in the tooth, but I feel like for two hours, it does take a long like a quite a while to really get into the meat of what’s going on.
And Daniel von Bargain falls out of the film.
I think they he probably only was on the set for like 2 days because he’s only in the same place twice, you know what I mean?
44:49
Like.
He showed up on the first day, you know, like the first scene.
Food catering and then yeah, then then yeah, then then did some more and that’s it.
Because he.
Sphincter on my forehead and let’s get the hell out of here.
You know exactly they they they only had him for a few days.
45:06
Yeah, I.
I, I have mixed feelings about that because like, I, I get what he was going for.
I do like like, you know, the noir elements and like the detective work.
But like, as you were saying, like there’s points where it’s also at times, like do you mean three times like them going to show Valentin?
45:30
He’s like, no.
Yeah.
No, she does not want to speak to you.
No, you know, And it’s just kind of meanders at times Like it’s, it’s like I, I, I think maybe like the cut that this is and then the cut that the studio has.
45:53
I like to see, you know, the studio cut.
I think that’s probably a happy medium because it does feel like overindulgent at times.
And again, like, so much as I like, Scott Bakula is like an actor because, you know, Star Trek Quantum.
46:11
Leap.
Yeah.
I haven’t really watched much of it either, but I just know he’s, you know, he’s one of his, one of his, one of his biggest.
Star in the world.
He like he’s not bad, but he’s not like he doesn’t carry the sophistication and like personality that and look that I would expect from like your hard boil, you know, noir detective, you know, he’s no, he’s no Sam Lake.
46:47
He’s not like bad, but he’s not like I don’t think he’s like, you know, it’s it’s like when you’re reviewing the wild bunch.
I don’t think he’s charismatic enough for like the lead.
Role.
Sure, so you you wouldn’t have been attracted to him in the way that fancy Jensen is where she’d be immediately or just like.
47:06
He’s drinking Budweiser and a.
Wife beater and a wife beater with.
Big baggy like MC Hammer red khakis that are pleaded to oblivion and then also like holding his beer like a fucking troglodyte.
47:24
Like, you know, no, I don’t know what she saw in him.
And she could have done better.
You know, she could have known better.
Valentin with his Tim Curry, you know.
Curls and.
Curls and you know he’s.
Great, I wish they gave him a little bit more drama to do because he, you know, again, like every time he’s kind of pouting in the on the sidelines like, oh, they’re.
47:46
Having sex up.
There, you know, like he’s just standing down in the in the foyer you.
Know you’re expecting to hear like El OS telephone line like playing in the.
Back your.
Love hurts.
You know, he reminds me of, he reminds me of the guy from Ghostbusters 2.
48:07
Like, no, no touching of the eagle.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
I mean, like again, like, like I’m mixed.
Like I can’t off the top of my head, like, you know, point to specific points.
I’d say like cut that or keep that in because I do think the best part of this film for me, like I do really enjoy it, like the noir stuff and having it like tied to, you know, a cult stuff.
48:39
Like it was like giving me really like, you know, like at times really like, I was like thinking of like the best points of like into the Mouth of Madness or like, you know, Prince of Darkness.
Yeah, because it has sort of the Lovecraftian feel at times.
48:55
Yeah, Yep, I get that.
Yeah, I like it.
So things that I really like about the film, besides that, I do think like it is a little bit too extended at times.
I like the idea that Clyde brings to this and it’s something that is pretty much always prevalent in his themes of so essentially this is the opposite of the Jesus resurrection, right?
49:18
Like, like Daniel von Bargain’s character, Nix is anti Jesus.
He is the person who is instead of going to be ushering in, you know, the the rapture, he’s ushering in a period of darkness.
49:34
He’s conjured a bunch of cult people.
He has his own disciples and he essentially is the Jesus figure on the flip side.
And you know, he’s literally even resurrected and stuff like that.
The idea of that I think is really interesting because it also conjures this image of like, you know, even, you know, highly religious people watching and be like, wow, that’s crazy, right?
49:59
Like that’s crazy that somebody would follow Nick’s like that.
And then you flip it on its head and it’s like, well, people that love Jesus are kind of doing the same thing in a different perspective.
But it’s it, you know, it kind of has this idea of, you know, the Antichrist sort of sort of thing that’s going on.
50:17
And I like that.
I think that it works pretty well in the film’s favor, that it sort of conjures this element.
And it’s something, like I said, that is it a Clive Barker aesthetic?
The the idea, at least not not the sort of the blaspheming of religion and sort of the opposite spectrum of, you know, not salvation, but fire and brimstone.
50:42
I like it.
I like that idea.
I think it’s really an interesting concept.
I think, you know, Nyx as a character is not like your traditional big bad, but he is very sort of love crafty and in a sense with that sort of and some great special effects to like with the the sphincter eye that he’s got going on, which is like got a really cool, like, you know, pulsating movement to it, which probably people sought out for the new like the flashlight.
51:09
I would assume they’re like, wow, how’d you guys do that?
Like we need a prototype stat for this.
That thing also spits out acid rain.
Yeah, yeah.
What did you think about the the cult people?
51:24
Because like the film kind of skips over them, but there’s this really nice montage of that, that showing like almost like a Children of the damned style.
Like, oh, in every single household.
Look at what’s happening in like you just see like the cult people have like murdered everybody in in their area and then they’re going to, you know, join up to to find Nicks again.
51:49
I like that scene.
I thought it was pretty cool.
I don’t know.
I just what did you think about that?
Yeah, like, they’re like sleeper agents and they’re waking up and they, like, even show like, you know, little kids on the kid, you know, killed a little girl, like, you know, and get to see them, you know, get really more and more enthralled into it because of, you know, this time they’re like, cutting their hair and ripping their hair out and, you know, burning their faces.
52:16
And he’s coming.
He’s coming.
He’s coming, you know, which makes it even better when he’s like kills the ball because he’s like, you’re not worthy.
Yeah, you just, you know what?
Never you all.
Suck.
Yeah, yeah, it’s great.
52:32
I like, I mean, I think that it has a lot of great moments.
I think again, the, the Barker aesthetic is something that just appeals to me naturally.
And I think that’s here, like you said this, the movie itself looks a lot, a lot like candy Man.
52:48
You know, the, the idea that even like like the graffiti and the cult house is very much the, the same kind of graffiti that you’d see in the candy man, you know, ghetto that they have in that movie.
I I think like that aesthetic works really well here and it’s really a driving force that, you know, keeps the movie going despite like some of the longness and as you said, like it’s sort of overindulgent in some of those other elements that they could have cut down.
53:23
But again, I, I think it’s overall a pretty enjoyable movie despite some of its flaws.
And like you said, I think maybe a middle ground between the theatrical cut and the director’s cut where they were able to just siphon out a little bit more probably would have left this being a pretty strong film overall.
53:43
As your first Clyde Barker film, really, besides Candy Man, which, you know, he only wrote what what would you say about Lord of Allusions, you know, is that make you want to seek out more Clyde Barker as we, I mean, you will be.
So you don’t really have a choice in the matter.
But if you did have a choice in the matter, would you be would you be interested in in seeing more?
54:04
Yeah, because like again, like I liked it.
I was pretty, you know, surprisingly really engaged with it.
Like like you were saying like the effects like it’s this good, like love crafty and Cronenberg, you know a thing like the the practical effects and looks are, you know, are really good.
54:24
It makes up for the shitty like CGI, you know that like you know, CGI putting that like really loose, you know the 1994 like Atari Jaguar, like, you know, Polygon work that like you know from one of the illusions.
54:40
Oh.
Yeah, yeah.
The the, you know, yeah, that’s that one is a little bit suspect there, but yeah.
But like, yeah, like it looks really cool.
It’s just like slapdash, like kind of smattering of ideas.
54:56
Some of them hit and some of them work, but it’s it like it.
It’s all binded together enough to where the aesthetic and the overall like themes and plot is, I think, I think really interesting and like if this is the like the kind like it’s like for me, a this is like when we did Craven some Cronenberg.
55:16
I like Cronenberg, like his work is, you know, too outside of like the fly, like it’s like really too droll.
So like here, if you know, feels a lot, you know, much more living and you know, bold and like I’ve, you know, said it a bunch of times, but like, you know, I’ve and I’ve told you like, you know, I’m a big, you know, Sam Lake, Alan Wake and, you know, remedy fans.
55:45
So like I can see where Sam Lake is also like getting, you know, pulling some of his ideas, you know, for that stuff.
So like, you know, it’s it’s I think it you know, it’s this is a very interesting like film and I like I was pleasantly surprised by it and can’t wait to see like what else, you know, he’s done.
56:03
And I like deal with like with the Candy Man, you know, being the only other thing like that, as you know, from our review, like Candy man a lot.
So yeah, I can see, I can see why though.
Like, you know, they weren’t putting the stuff on TV.
56:19
It’s like, you know, showgirls, there’s some nice frontal penis in this.
It’s not there’s not a lot, but there is, you know, the guy running around this cowboy boots with the hookers and the motel, you know, little Dick showing man.
Love it here for it, you know?
56:35
Yeah, that was actually, that’s, that leads us to my rating scale, which I was going to go, I was going to say, so out of 0 out of 10/2 films in a row where we have full frontal male nudity, actually, I think this film has it twice because you get the the guy that’s with the the hookers in the hotel room.
56:52
And then later on there’s another guy who just happens to be like in the cult room and I think he’s just like naked in a robe or something.
So you get it twice.
So on a scale of, you know, we we’ve had two in a row, what would you give a Lord of allusions?
The director’s gun?
57:08
I’d give it a 7 1/2.
I liked it a lot.
I was really, I said, pleasantly surprised.
It’s a weird, interesting film.
There’s a lot of like good ideas here.
It’s got, you know, good, you know, body horror.
The practical effects are really good.
57:23
The noir element really interesting, really like that a lot.
I think the cast is great.
Kevin J O’Connor, I would like in my head you didn’t get it, but like he’s also, you know, you know, Henry for from Dave, you know, there will be blood like in you and Benny from the mummy.
57:44
So this is like, you know how I got that role.
Like what’s this kind of like mummy, mummy and like Sam K Jansen and like really well acted every like like I said, like I don’t think Scott Bakule was bad.
I just don’t think like he’s, you know, right for the role.
58:00
You know, he doesn’t do it.
He’s not like a detriment.
He’s just, you know, not uplifting the character, you know.
Harry D’amore Yeah, I like, like I said, I liked it a lot.
Be interested to see, you know, how it differs from the theatrical cut and, you know, if what was cut was, you know, like if there’s I probably, you know, imagine there’s like a happy middle ground, but it’s this is a film.
58:28
And I was like, I was telling you like it’s like this film could only be made from like 91 to 95.
This is like the type of film that like studios with green light and then be like, should we have greenlit this or should we have let you know new line pick this up?
58:45
Yeah, God, like, you know, So kudos for like it fitting into that nice, like early 90s, you know, niche horror, you know, film.
So yeah, like I said, looking forward to the rest of the films we’re covering, but I liked it a lot, 7 1/2.
59:05
Pleasantly surprised, yeah.
Yeah, I would agree with that.
I’m going to give it a 7 1/2 out of 10 as well.
I think, you know, again, I like a lot of the themes that have the film has is this sort of Antichrist, you know, opposite of the Jesus myth on.
I think that the idea of this noir type detective who’s, you know, dealing with occult themes, it’s not like maybe maybe at the time it was a little bit more unique.
59:33
It certainly isn’t now.
We have a lot of these types of Colt noir type things.
But at the time it was maybe a little bit more, you know, fresh.
So I, I like the idea.
Scott Bakula’s fine.
Like you said, he’s not, you know, he’s not amazing.
59:49
He’s he’s sort of just there to be kind of this wooden character on purpose.
So he’s, he’s meeting the requirements.
All right.
And I think, you know, overall there’s a lot to like about Lord of Illusions from a, a physical horror perspective of, you know, actual, you know, practical effects to the soundtrack, which is really great.
1:00:10
And it’s sort of a cross between.
The Hellraiser who did the composer of this film did not do Hellraiser, but it’s very kind of similar to Hellraiser’s theme along with some of the other films from the 90s, horror movies from the 90s.
1:00:29
It’s got a nice, you know, a cast of characters that the film takes, spends a lot of time, especially the director spends a lot of time, you know, kind of fleshing out and giving personality to, you know, even characters like Valentin, who’s sort of a tangential character.
1:00:47
It really does spend quite a bit of time with him regardless.
And then, you know, the same with Butterfield.
So it has this uniqueness to it.
Maybe a little bit long on the director’s cut side, you know, two hours for this movie, maybe a little bit long winded and could have cut a few of those investigative moments to sort of whittle things down a little bit.
1:01:07
But certainly did not caught any fancy.
Jansen, you know that I don’t know what the producers were thinking.
There must have had some.
Maybe she was the wife of somebody who is like took offence a little bit and like no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, this is not printing.
No, no way.
But, you know, regardless, you know, very interesting movie, and I think it leads us very nicely into some of the other Clyde Barker films.
1:01:30
So you’ll want to stick around all Halloween long as we do the rest of Clyde Barker’s directorial output as well as movies that he had a hand in either inspiring by his writing or actually writing.
So we’re going to have fun with bobbing for Barker.
1:01:50
All right, well, thanks for listening to our episode on Lord of Illusions.
Hope you enjoyed.
Hope you stick with us throughout the whole Halloween season for our Clyde Barker festival.
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1:02:06
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1:02:21
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Thanks for listening to our episode again.
Hope you stick around for Bobbing for Barker all Halloween season and until next time.
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