Episode: 377 • Duration: 01:03:44
We’re throwing it back to another George Pavlou/Clive Barker collaboration for this episode of Bobbing for Barker. Underworld is a screenplay written for screen by Barker, and it details a sinister world of drugs called the White Man that gives people euphoric dreams but also horrible mutations. This movie was also known as Transmutations, and we discuss which is the better title, the slow pacing, the interesting body horror ideas at play, and whether the movie capitalizes on them.
We’re also drinking Bitburger German premium pils!
Bobbing for Barker continues all Halloween season!
Hit that play button above to listen in.
Transcript – Bobbing for Barker (7) UNDERWORLD (auto-generated)
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0:00
This September, hear the rattling of chains, see the master of illusions, experience the cabal of monsters, the purveyor of pain comes to Blood and black rum podcast this Halloween season with Clive Barker’s filmography in thobbing for Barker.
0:22
Welcome back to the blood and black rum podcast.
I’m Ryan from coalswatstation.com and I’m joined with my close Barker.
Yeah, nice, nice.
Running out of voices to do for the intro there.
I got some.
Just just trying to do different ones for our Halloween episodes.
0:41
And I guess I’m just not a good ventriloquist or whatever.
I can’t do.
Can’t throw my voice too well.
But we’re bad with another episode.
Yeah, I do.
We’re back with an episode of Bobbing for Barker, our series on Clive Barker movies for our Halloween season, and we’re pretty far into it now at this point.
1:05
I think what it was is like #7 something like that.
Seven on the on the docket here.
We’ve been cruising through Clyde Barker’s filmography, which as we’ve talked about throughout this series, is fairly slim, especially the ones that he’s actually directed.
1:22
He’s only have got a few to his name and the rest we’re doing based off of either writing credits or just even based on stories by Clyde Barker, which we’ve done a few of those.
But this time we’re we’re coming back with another film that was an early Clyde Barker movie, one that again, he worked with director George Pavlou on.
1:46
We recently covered Raw Head Rex, which was in another collaboration.
And unfortunately for that, Raw Head Rex was the the movie where Clyde Barker said, you know what, I’m done with simply writing the movies.
I’m going to be directing them from now on as well.
2:02
So I don’t know where that sort of the collaboration between Clyde Barker and George Pavlou came from, especially considering George Pavlou is not really, you know, he doesn’t have a lot of directing credits under his belt.
And and actually this film was his first, his directorial debut.
2:21
I don’t know why they decided to work together on those two or if that was sort of like a production contract where it was like, OK, we’re buying two of your stories and they were buddies.
This is maybe, Yeah, I, I feel like it.
2:37
This is this is probably some sort of production thing where the whoever, the production companies behind both of these movies, I would guess were the same.
And they probably just auctioned off Clyde Barker’s story.
And, you know, that was kind of where the the collaboration came from.
2:55
But either way, as we discussed in Raw Head Rex, we weren’t really big fans of it.
It was sort of a taxing movie, not particularly interesting, and did not really, you know, adhere to Clyde Barker’s original storyline at all, Though he wrote the screenplay.
3:16
It had a lot of meddling and eventually became the the raw head wrecks that we just covered on a previous episode.
This movie was known by two different names, either transmutations, which I’m not really sure if that was like its initial.
3:33
And no, it actually was not.
That was like a different name that it was released in like Canada under that name.
But it was also and more commonly known as Underworld and not the Kate Beckinsale movie.
The, the not the action-packed series of films from the 2000s where Kate Beckinsale wore a lot of leather and kicked vampire and werewolf booty.
3:58
This is a different underworld.
And I’m going to venture a guess and say you had never heard of this movie before.
It was a good guess, right?
This is another one of those this I feel like again, too, though to to your credit, this is not a movie that most people would recognize.
4:15
I I don’t think it was not very popular, still is not very popular.
Doesn’t have really any well known names attached to it really just kind of went by unnoticed throughout the horror sphere.
4:31
However, interestingly, I have seen this movie and I did not realize it when I when we first talked about, which is always a when outside, when you’re like, yeah, it’s a good sign.
Because you were talking about like before off the camera, you know, like going into it and like, yeah, you know, it’s I don’t, I haven’t seen Underworld.
4:51
I haven’t seen it.
Can’t wait to see Underworld.
I haven’t seen it.
And then you.
Find it.
You did it.
Yeah, Yeah.
So when I was looking at it, I was kind of like eyeing the poster artwork, which I is kind of the poster artwork is kind of eye-catching on the in the sort of like reanimator esque sense.
5:10
But when I was looking at the artwork, I was like, that looks really familiar.
And so I thought I might have had it on Blu-ray because it did get a Blu-ray release, but that was by Keno and I don’t have it.
And I was like, you know, why do I think I’ve why do I recognize that cover artwork?
5:27
So then when I was watching the movie today, something just kind of clicked with me and I don’t know if it was seeing Dan Larry Lamb in the the title or something like that, but with a forever reason, I kind of recognize it.
And I was like, you know what, I think I have seen this movie.
5:44
So I went back and I was like, I think I actually reviewed this movie for horrornews.net way back in the day.
I used to write for Horror News dot.
Not like really quickly.
Probably it was about 15 years ago and they would do this thing where like, and I was at that time, I was like fresh out of college.
6:01
So is it just kind of a free gig that I was doing to just put my name out there as a writer?
And I was just basically, it would send me these random ripped DVDs of movies that generally were not widely available.
They were like ones that they had to either find or they were like VHS rips or something.
6:21
Another fun fact is that’s where I first saw Elves was just like a random DVDVHS RIP of it.
So they would send all these to me and then it would just be like, all right, yeah, just review them and send it to us within a certain amount of time.
And so, yeah, at one point I watched Underworld and I reviewed it for them.
6:39
You can go find it on horrornews.net if you go looking my reviews up there.
And I was not very favourable to it at that time.
I think I said that there’s not very many movies that actually make me feel like, you know, falling asleep, but this is one of them.
6:55
Something like that.
Because I was just kind of perusing my own review just to see what I thought about it.
Where are you sitting there going like grind you old dog you.
Most of the time when I read my older reviews, I’m like, oh, Ryan, you weren’t such a great writer back then, unfortunately.
7:11
And it’s like, you’re so much better now.
You’re.
Such, so much.
Yeah, yeah.
You’re such a you’re.
So much better of a writer.
And now it’s it’s, you know, back then it wasn’t as good, but.
No, that’s.
But no, I mean I was.
Like I do miss in college when you were like in creative writing, you’d send me something like what do you think?
7:28
And let me the troglodype being like it’s a short story, what do you want from me?
Yeah, you had no, no actual criticism to provide, so yeah, your.
Your sentence.
Yeah, you know, that’s right.
7:44
That’s right.
I was yeah.
I was not super enthused with my writing from back then, but it did help me remember that I had seen this movie and at that time I also.
If you go back and you.
Edit your post to be like, you won’t believe what Ryan thinks about the underworld and caps.
8:05
I’m sure all of a sudden you’re going to be getting millions of, you know, you know, rabies on it because the algorithm’s going to be like some caps and you won’t believe.
Well, The funny thing about it was I went to go look and just see if, you know, I had garnered any comments or anything.
8:24
Nope.
Because probably no one has really seen this movie as that was.
The thing about covering these sort of underground movies and really like very cult films that people were not very, you know, interested in is that like you never really got comments on them because a lot of people would would read a review because they had already watched the movie and then kind of weigh in on whether they thought you were correct about it or not.
8:51
And with with this movie, no, there was no one that weighed in because I don’t they’re.
Not giving you saw five to do, you know, like something hot off the press, like being get get the engagement you get in.
But the the thing about it was that it did make me feel exceptionally old when I looked back and I was like, I haven’t seen this movie in 15 years.
9:14
I used to write for horrornews.net 15 years ago.
It makes me sound like I would now.
I’m like super old, you know, saying something like that.
It’s crazy.
But yeah, 15 years ago I watched Dear Diary.
Now we’ll find out if I feel the same way about it as we get into the review portion of the.
9:36
But once again.
Totally.
I my knowledge of this film is was oblivious that lived a happy life without knowing this existed.
Well, now you do.
Now, you know, Now the other thing that you’ve done with this bobbing for Barker is you’ve seen both of the George Pavlou, Clive Barker collaboration.
9:58
So you’re, you know, before you were a real layman and now you’re just completely.
Experienced Pavlou expert now.
Yeah.
Whoa, whoa, whoa.
You still haven’t seen a couple of his movies here.
He did have little Devil’s The Birth in 1993 which has a 3.5 out of 10 on IMTB.
10:18
So let’s let’s not get ahead of ourselves here, OK?
You still need to see that one at least.
He has directed a couple of other films, like TV movie, Grey Clay Dolls, ATV movie from 1991.
And like what TV?
10:36
Where was that?
I don’t even know.
No one knows.
And then he’s also done something else here.
What was the last thing?
Oh, a couple of short films, more recently, actually, 2020 and 2021.
But other than that, yeah, you’ve pretty much seen George Beverly’s filmography.
10:52
So very interesting as we’ve covered them both.
All right.
Let’s take a break before we get into the movie, though.
And let’s talk about the beer that we have on the show today.
Now it was my turn.
I went out and I was really struggling again as we’ve kind of talked about to find anything different that we’ve not had on the show.
11:10
It’s for, especially for Oktoberfests.
It’s very hard at this point to find any kind of Oktoberfest in our area that we have not had, like we, we have pretty much had every single one that I can find in any of the stores that we’ve been to.
11:27
That’s sort of just like the area as well.
You don’t get a ton of different stuff here.
But at the same time, I think that’s just testament to, we’ve done a lot of Oktoberfest on this show as we’ve done probably almost 100 Halloween episodes here.
So it’s getting harder and harder to find them.
11:45
So instead I, I didn’t even, you know, get a Oktoberfest this time.
I just got a German Pilsner which again is sort of still festive with the season in my opinion.
I don’t know if you feel like that as well, but you know, any kind of Germanesque lager, pilsner, even half reminds me of Oktoberfest and in October and fall season.
12:09
So I count it.
And this one was one that we’ve never had as well.
And it with the German beers too, the ones that we get imported.
We’ve also had quite a few of those as well and covered them.
So it’s getting harder to find any of those that we haven’t had before.
12:25
But this one did grab my attention because I had never really seen it before, definitely had never had it before.
So I was like, you know what, I’ve got to grab?
This one makes perfect sense for this episode.
So I grabbed Bitburger Premium pills, which is a German import and you know, a standard German pilsner.
12:52
This one is definitely a nice drinkable, kind of crushable pilsner style in a, you know, very like European pilsner style.
It does have like a nice little breadiness to it, hot, hot backbone, but still nice and light and refreshing.
13:12
Does have a little bit of a like a hot bitterness to it at times, but I think it’s pretty, pretty nice.
It’s a, you know, a nice quality beer.
You can you can taste the the quality ingredients in it and for the price of the 12 pack, I was pleasantly surprised.
13:29
A lot of times these imports tend to creep up be a little bit more expensive than your standard pilsners, but this was right on right, right on target.
So in in general, very happy with this Bitburger, which I also like the little writing that they have on the can and on the box.
13:45
It just says Bita ice.
Best.
That was my German, so it’s nice, but what do you think about Big Burger?
Like it a lot.
I’ve been wanting to get it a couple of times because I’ve seen it and like, oh, price looks, you know, really good for that.
14:03
I’m surprised.
And then I saw like beer Advocate.
Like it’s not like a highly rated, you know, pilsner just kept me away from them.
Well, that just shows.
Although that’s why I don’t check into beers anymore on them because they’re all a bunch of chocolates and idiots.
It tastes like a Czech pilsner tastes like pills in the Raquel, which means on this show delightful happy to have you in the stable you’re great you’re crisp refreshing.
14:31
This is AI would say like good late spring summer beer a nice gentle kiss of a hop.
You know slight maltiness to it you know rounds it out kiss.
You know, like the, you know, Chuck Pilsner be in a lager style, you know, which we’re all about here.
14:54
Yeah, can’t complain at all.
Like it a lot.
I would probably know.
Yeah.
If I’m, if I’m, you know, this would be like instead of getting like a 12 pack of Heineken, I would go for this.
You know there’s help.
There you go.
Yeah, yeah.
15:09
And it’s actually, they had a quite a few packs of it there, but I’ve not seen it that often in any other places.
So it was interesting to see the one thing that I don’t like is the the the the name of it kind of reminds me of like some like start tech startup, you know, like, you know, like bit burgers, we’re a cryptocurrency, you know, we’re a beer cryptocurrency, but other than that, that’s how they.
15:33
Get you for, you know, they started in 1817 all the way back then, you know, starting crypto, yeah.
That’s right.
Well then they’ve they’ve amassed a good quantity of crypto.
I guess it’s a safe to invest.
In or we move on.
I do have something I want to talk about when it comes to this, though.
15:51
Sure heavy.
I’m on their website because I always go onto the website of the beer we’re doing.
Have you looked at their taste page?
They have recipes on here.
Let me read you some of these recipes because at the price point of this beer, no wonder why the price point of the beer is what it is.
16:10
Because when you see the fucking recipe list they have here, you’re going to be saying, yeah, I’m saving money in the beer because I won’t be in the wallet.
For example, we have a lasagna with carousel bread, whipped salt cod, caramelized onion and parsley.
16:29
Pasta with mussels, chickpeas and Rosemary.
Roasted octopus with canelli bean puree and parsley oil.
Pumpkin and talarici.
Risotto with crispy Rosemary.
Beef tartare with burrata and crushed pistachios.
16:48
Spaghetti with a zucchini mint and toasted almond pesto.
A crostini with robo Yeah, black pepper, figs and honey.
What?
I guess, yeah.
17:05
I mean, I would try some of this stuff at the same time.
It’s like what the fuck?
Like who’s like, who’s making all this?
Yeah, like the one.
Like, thing that’s like, kind of like, Oh yeah, average man is like grilled brats with drunken onions and sweet and sour cabbage, OK.
17:22
Sure.
You know, a BBQ chicken Curry burger, but like, there’s like so much of it.
It’s just like.
I I’ve never seen anything like that crostini with lobeola, black pepper, figs and honey.
It’s yeah, it’s yeah, we’re.
17:40
From a class of like, you know, not even Saratoga would have like this like that level of bourgeois happen now that port noise is running in town so.
See, yeah, like when when you Scroll down a little bit further, you start getting into the the normal stuff that you would kind of see like a bit burger, beer, ribs, Arnold Palmer BBQ chicken, which I think is kind of interesting.
18:05
Wouldn’t.
They do have a rattler.
Combination.
They have a rattler, yeah.
They have because they got this, a alcohol free version of it, a unfiltered gluten free logger and a rattler.
Yeah, that’s pretty cool.
18:21
Nice little rattler.
Yeah.
And then they’ve got Bratwurst balls as well, which look pretty good.
So.
So that’s.
Yeah, that is.
Yeah, you’re right.
It’s pretty bougie.
Who?
Wants a grilled fig and pear cake.
And I do like how they start, they start you with that on the recipes list.
18:38
Like, it’s like, whoa, start off with the basics first and then move on to those, you know, culinary masterpieces.
Like where am I getting salted ripped cot in this?
Like I’m just thinking right where would I even go?
Is is my local Dollar General good air?
18:56
You’ll have to you have to write to them on the help on the help things like I was perusing your recipes.
I don’t know where to get salted with God.
Can you help me?
They don’t hand it at Dollar General and our ALDI doesn’t have it either.
I don’t know what.
That’s right.
19:12
See, that’s what they mean by food desert.
That’s right, yes, We don’t have these specialty.
We don’t have a mushroom bar.
Barley and red lentil soup with Christie’s speck.
What the fuck is speck is that?
19:27
I’m thinking that’s fish, right?
Yeah, I would say so.
Yeah.
All right.
Well, with that, let’s get into the the this film.
19:45
You know that would would also go well with a Crostini underworld slash transmutations now.
Which name do you like better?
Which?
You know what, I’m going to have to go with transmutations.
Oh, wrong answer.
It’s Underworld.
20:01
You like Underworld better?
Yeah, I like transmutations.
I do understand why they had to change it because the Trump administration is banning anything that trans in it.
So, you know, again, this film would have gotten banned immediately if it was going by transmutations.
20:19
Yeah, I’d, I’d like transmutation.
I think it’s a cool name but I can understand why they changed it.
Because people like what the fuck is transmutation I?
Don’t think it earns transmutations though, because even though it’s a plot point, they don’t have the films and it does have body horror.
20:36
It’s not.
I don’t think it like it’s earned that though.
Like it’s got to be more substantive on that part.
Like if it was Cronenberg making this film, OK, you can get away with that.
But I think it’s just being like Underworld because we’re the people that, you know, the outcasts on drugs.
20:53
It’s true, It’s true.
I can, I, can I give it to you?
I I But I do think Underworld as a title is kind of like underwhelming as well.
But like most of these films we’ve done are underwhelming raw head wrecks.
Glad you know Midnight Meat Train.
21:17
It’s very true.
Yeah.
Well, so this one is kind of interesting because as I was doing some research, I, I don’t think that it’s actually based on a Clyde Barker’s short story.
It’s, you know, this is one of one of the few films where it was not like adapted from Books of Blood.
21:35
It is actually just AI think an original screenplay by Clyde Barker working.
Also, for some reason there’s an additional writer credited, James Kaplan, who’s really only credit is this movie.
So it must have just been like either collaborator or maybe even they did some additional script modifications to the movie after Clyde Barker wrote the screenplay.
21:58
I I don’t really know.
Again, I don’t know that much about the back story behind this movie.
I’m sure there’s some information out there, but I haven’t researched it.
But the interesting thing about it is that it’s not from a short story.
So it’s, it’s, it’s specifically a screenplay that he had created for this movie, which was also a, an early film for Clyde Barker in general, you know, prior to all of the adaptations.
22:24
This is kind of the first one in his his movie making experiences and again working with George Pavlou here, which was his first movie prior to Raw Head Rex.
This movie released in 1985 and Raw Head Rex released in 1986.
22:40
So again, there was very little time period between the two.
That’s right.
So this movie is kind of a a weird idea, but it also is very similar in scope to something like Night Breed.
22:58
The plot ideas are similar.
There’s like quite literally this kind of chud network, as we’ve called it before and you know, Night Breed as well, but same idea, a network of sort of like disfigured people who are living underneath the city.
23:18
And they in this one, they’re taking a drug which they they call like Lactothiazine, which again makes me laugh because you know, lacto milk and it’s just like a Milky substance.
They didn’t really put that much thought into the the whole thing.
23:34
And it’s kind of like a pseudo drug that they’re talking about, which they also like to call the white man, which kind of, you know, again, is kind of a playoff of the white devil of cocaine.
But which would, you know, obviously in 1985, which would have been fairly popular at that time.
23:51
But they call it the white man.
And it’s a kind of an injection that they take.
And the film does a pretty poor job of actually telling you what exactly it does or even showing you what exactly it does.
It seems to basically put you to sleep and give you dreams.
24:08
Is is like what the film kind of explains.
I don’t.
Did you get anything else besides that from the idea of what you when you take white man?
It’s just it’s, you know, heroin like a date substitute for, you know, heroin because it’s like greatest brain killer, you know, you, you trip out, you see hallucinations like, you know, yeah, cool.
24:29
It’s just, you know.
It’s, yeah, it’s a, it’s a substance.
Like, I just thought, I mean, the only, like, you know, interesting, like, part about that is like, OK, so they didn’t like, you know, they’re showing at least because, you know, the way you stop drugs in the 80s is you murder everybody in your town that has drugs.
24:53
That way you can, you know, keep the streets clean.
Damn.
Yeah.
Get rid of these.
You know, the film shows, you know, a doctor’s the one administrating, you know, the stuff to these people.
They got them mugged.
So, you know, we can feel sympathy for the chuds in the underground.
So I mean, it’s the whole premise is weird.
25:15
Like it’s it’s cool, but at the same time the film doesn’t execute enough the idea like because again, like as you were saying, it’s like night Breed.
Clive’s got a lot of, you know, concurrent themes and ideas in these stories, you know, vagrants and people who are, you know, looked down upon and, you know, the the scum of the city per SE, you know, are being put into a you know, they’re downtrodden and for a stupid reason and how what’s going to happen.
25:54
And that’s like what the whole premise of this is, because it’s like, it’s fine.
But again, like the execution of it is like where the problem is because like the 1st 3rd of this film trying to get into that is just so yeah, fucking awful.
26:13
Like I’m just this tedious laborious.
Like why is the guy like a former criminal?
Like why is it a prostitute?
Like what?
Like what?
Like you know, like why is there a gang leader here in a fucking like, you know, fur coat, mink suit and mullet man running around like I don’t understand.
26:37
You could just like, you know, taking this that whole 1st 25 minutes of the film and condensed it in the 5 minutes, you know?
I mean, I think that, yeah, the barrier for entry is very large.
The film does sort of want to have this very underlying feeling of mystery to it that I think gets in its own way.
27:03
It’s it’s very 80s of five by that sense of just like we’ve got random cool stuff in here, right?
Like you said, like the dude who just is randomly wearing sunglasses in a trench coat for no reason, just like slinking around everywhere.
27:19
This movie was like the casting car was like looking for, you know, Skokie, you know.
Rental big, you know.
Yeah, male, male pattern baldness with a mullet.
27:35
We, you know, we’re and, you know, and they scored gold because they had every, every guy coming out that had like the, you know, the Tim Heidecker fat man with the like, strand of Charlie Brown hair look going on.
27:51
They all came out in spades.
Yeah, exactly.
It’s and it’s funny because in this movie, all of these guys are treated like they are the coolest shit.
Like whenever the dude with the trench coats walking around the film is like covering him like it’s fucking, you know, the same way that you might see Neo in the Matrix, they’re treating this dude who in any other scenario would look like the biggest nerd guy that you think, like, might be shooting up your post office.
28:22
You know, he’s he’s just slinking around outside.
You’d be like maybe looking for the nearest exit just in case he’s got a briefcase with a gun in it.
Like it’s so and you’re you’re expecting to.
Hear like bad start playing or you know or beat it like.
28:42
Yeah, Lucas’s name, I forgot to this.
That is, it’s got the the classic Clive Barker names in it, like the names that aren’t really names or, you know, just referring to characters by their last name, you know, And again too, I can understand the the 80s were a different time of coolness.
29:03
This film also has a soundtrack done by the like synth pop synth wave band Fer.
I like saying that word to Fer.
I don’t really I’m I’m assuming that’s how you say it.
But if they were a pretty like, not not a huge, but a, you know, pretty popular synth pop group in the 80s and they collaborate here to create like sort of a almost like a dark wave esque post punk type soundtrack to the film, which I’m not saying is bad.
29:38
The the soundtrack is sort of to me like a goblin ask thing that’s this kind of like working, not really in tandem with the subject matter of the movie, but sort of just behind it.
Kind of like a goblin sort of thing would do.
29:57
Not necessarily aiding the film, but also not hindering it.
I do kind of like the the dark wave soundtrack that it’s got going on, but it’s very 80s of five like it.
It just feels of its time.
And one of the things I thought was hilarious is when, you know, you’ve got Bain played by Larry Lamb.
30:16
He’s the main guy you were talking about who’s like, oh, we don’t really know my West.
The fact you didn’t laugh at this upset me a little bit.
Or Dollar General Jack Nicholson.
That’s right.
Yeah, he’s got.
You know the Jack look of like, yeah, hi.
30:31
You know, my hair looks slicked back.
You don’t even want to Clive Barker film because my I have red stripes.
My hair for some fucking Reese.
That’s, yeah, that’s the thing, yeah.
That I thought that was really funny is the film does it makes it seem like this this like red striped hair is very important to this Bane character, right?
30:52
It’s like a specific look that they were going for.
And yet you can barely see it anytime because he’s got such dark hair.
It’s slicked back.
And most of the film is kind of yeah, like the 1st 15 minutes, like you.
Don’t see it.
And then like he turns around and like, you know you.
Should and all of a sudden he’s got this like that’s come from like, well, that’s exactly.
31:11
Right, like with when we were doing Book of Blood with the the tattoo, you know?
Yeah, all of a sudden, the tattoo.
Is out of nowhere.
I mean, I understand it was like part of the character, but at the same time it was like, hold on, I’m like, what the hell?
31:28
Like is like, what’s the significance?
Is this disaster show that?
Yeah, yeah, I’m a vagrant.
I’m a run.
He’s cool.
Cool.
See, you’re not.
Hold on, I I thought that was really funny.
I’m doing a pretty good Jack right now.
You’re not a good enough head, you know?
31:43
Yeah.
That was, I thought it was really funny though, like that.
They just kind of pull this out of nowhere, the red hair.
And then the other thing that I found very funny with Bane is that so he gets hired by mothers kill this guy who’s, you know, like you said, he’s he’s this fur coat wearing motherfucker who is kind of a weird villain.
32:07
Like he’s almost, I don’t know.
Well, he turns.
Out to like be a villain, but at the same time it’s like why does he end up being a villain?
Not yeah, not really sure he’s.
Just kind of, you know, it’s like just kind of like spirals into.
32:24
Yeah, Not, not really.
Yeah, not really explained, But.
But The funny thing is, so he he hires Bain to go find this woman who’s been abducted, Nicole.
And we see at the beginning of the film and excruciating, egregious slow motion as the whole film’s opening credits, about 10 minutes, is in slow motion of just like everybody, like just panning around a party.
32:49
And it’s clear that they’re like in a prostitution ring or some sort of escort service.
And it’s just you have.
You have.
The wrong though, by far for free.
For free.
It’s well she knows, you know, no one knows how to speak well except that.
33:07
But like, yeah, it’s like she’s just lying there in her tawdry torn apart, like she’s in a Tim Burton fucking film.
We are waiting, waiting for Johnny Depp to come and whisk her away and.
Nicole.
33:24
That’s.
Pretty funny too.
Everybody loves.
You and it’s like, why?
And it’s like why?
You look at her, She’s like, what is this what we’re calling the Belle of the box?
See, that’s how you know, Clive Barker wrote this film.
33:40
And like he’s like, oh, yeah, she’s beautiful.
And it’s like Clive, you don’t know what beautiful it is.
Yeah, it’s just, it’s just so.
Weird, it’s like I I was thinking of like, you know, Smokey and the Bandit with like, you know, when Jerry Reeves singing Bandit, it gave me the same vibes.
33:59
Here, but it’s more.
It’s true, yeah.
It’s because it just comes out of nowhere, like, and then like because at the beginning they’re just whispering like.
Nicole.
Nicole.
And then the soundtrack kicks in.
It’s like Nicole.
But So what I was saying is like, you have her being abducted and Bane is brought in to track her down.
34:19
Like no one can do this but you, Bane.
You’re so good at this, Bane.
And they’re like also you, you know, as a, a detective or something, you’re trying to be remaining inconspicuous.
And he pulls out his cherry red convertible, driving it around Willy nilly like you’re not any conspicuous at all.
34:37
Bane.
Bane you’re drawing.
That’s where like.
Also where this one and a half million dollar budget must have went to He’s driving like a 1962 Jaguar E500.
Like I, I don’t I don’t know if I can get in the model exactly right, but I know it was a Jaguar.
34:56
It had the Jaguar huddle in a minute but holy shit like.
I just fucking I thought it was super funny because like, as it did, you know, this sort of neo noir type film where Bain’s, you know, this very mysterious guy and then he’s driving this Jaguar around.
35:14
That’s so like spot able from anywhere.
Like there’s no way he’s going to be sneaking up on anybody.
You know, there’s one point where he like goes to the doctor’s house, Savory and he’s kind of like sneaks in and you know, he’s looking through his files and everything.
35:30
It’s like, yeah, all Savory had to do is look out the window and there’s a fucking red hue just like beating down into the like a like a small sun, you know, reflecting into his house.
And he’s like, oh, OK, yeah, Bane’s here.
I see the fucking convertible out there.
35:46
It’s just funny that, you know, it’s, it’s so conspicuous.
But yeah, this I, I, I, I totally understand what you’re saying.
The 1st 3rd of this movie is definitely interminable.
It takes a really long time to get into any part of the pot because it seems like they’re very hesitant to even describe anything that’s going on.
36:09
It’s like they want to keep literally every part of the movie a secret for the audience.
And I do think that’s detrimental because I feel like it holds the audience at arm’s length for so long that you really have a hard time getting into the plot or finding any sort of, you know, likeability in its characters.
36:31
It’s probably that it is because they do that again, the film’s detriment is the acting.
Full stop.
Everyone’s fucking terrible on this film, muted, boring, bland wooden bullshit and having it be like try to take this, you know, Randy OS, you know, Mystic approach and it’s like the love of God, just get to get to the point because when it because when it gets to the point, like, OK, I feel a little bit interested.
37:05
But then when you have, you know, fucking Larry Lambie like Bianca.
Yeah, that’s true.
That is true.
Takes her right out of the movie.
Reason, Bianca.
Like we are getting somewhere then all of a sudden, like, come now, Bianca.
37:26
It’s true, it’s true.
That is rating Yeah, the word the the worst thing about this movie would be if it just had more Bianca in it like because they just have to keep saying it and then yeah, yeah, that that’s.
I also picked up on that of just like.
37:43
You’re saying it like.
That do all.
Do all like British people say?
Aluminium or aluminium?
Is it Bianca or Bianca?
And then to to the other point, does Bianca like being called like that?
Like you know her, she like.
Saying it like that boy Bane and his, you know, streaky red hair and his Dollar General Jack Nicholson.
38:04
Look, she’s like I’m all over this.
I have to.
She’s.
Yeah.
I want to spend the night with you, Roy.
Yeah, that’s what I want, Mike, because my wife is watching as well.
She’s like, why does everyone want this man?
He’s the least interesting man in this movie.
38:19
He’s just like he has no personality whatsoever.
Well, why is he so popular with ever with the latest?
How could he not be?
He hate the Pross.
Juice pay him afterwards.
Thank you for your time.
For I agree with you, the acting is bad.
38:38
I think where the film does like, have a semblance of something is is definitely.
You can tell from Clyde Barker’s writing that this probably would have been better as a story where it could have kept some of that mystery to it without having to show.
I think that part of the problem is George Pavlou’s direction is not great.
38:59
There’s a lot of scenes where the dialogue seems stilted because there’s a shot shot to shot, you know, conversations.
So like they’ll be, you know, one person on one shot and then switch around to the other shoulder for the other.
39:16
And it feels very stilted, almost like it wasn’t edited very well together.
Or, you know, they shouldn’t maybe have used that kind of a dialogue conversation because it’s just not they weren’t very good at managing it.
But either way, it feels very stilted.
39:32
I do think that that’s part of the problem because I think that Clyde Barker storyline is actually pretty interesting in a lot of ways.
And we both said this, that it very it feels very Cronenbergian in the way that it has this sort of drug that influences people and it has this sort of body horror aesthetic that mutates them, right?
39:54
Like the drug itself is, you know, if we’re talking about it as a stand in for heroin, it is making physical changes to the user.
They they, you know, they have literal physical side effects, which is not uncommon for things like meth, right?
40:11
But specifically, it is more of a mutation to the whole body does think different things to everybody.
And the idea behind the movie is that they’re trying the the the mutated people.
That are living in this underworld are trying to figure out why Nicole does not have these symptoms.
40:27
She is not changed.
She just literally looks exactly the same.
She has like they they call her the beauty and whether you agree with that or not, that’s her whole thing is that she doesn’t look any different and they want to find out why that is even after she takes all this this white man and I think that’s a really cool concept.
40:50
Very interesting, and I think where the film would have done even better is if it went a little bit more batshit crazy.
I think it needed more mutation, more body horror and pus potentially that inclusion of what?
41:06
What does that mean about the dreams?
Because we really don’t get to see what that even means in this in the context.
Of the movie, like I would totally agree with that.
Go lean more into the body horror show, like the effects of like, you know, someone be like, oh, it doesn’t affect me.
41:22
Then have them be like, you know, like something happened.
Like again, we can tell from when we see like one guy being burned alive, like it goes from the body to like this really shitty looking, you know, wax doll that’s melting like.
41:38
So they probably didn’t have the effects.
What the effects that they did do.
We’re not bad.
Learn more into that to make it more interesting and talk because again, like that’s the crux of the story is like they’re they’ve been Guinea pig by, you know, Doctor Savory with his drug and you know, the effects of it is, hey, you might get a fucking penis head or you might, you know.
42:08
You know, like.
Lean into that because you’re just having like 5 people be like, where are the Crockins running in the sea because of this?
Nicole, you’re beautiful, you know, like it’s like a good idea, but you just like you got you got to round it out because the film just ends up turning into what every 80s film ends up on it.
42:32
Just a fucking 20 minute gun, you know, shoot out in Chinatown warehouse and I I, I couldn’t swore I saw Bronson there looked like death with streets mowing down the whole you know.
It’s very true.
42:49
And I think like the thing that I, I do like about the storyline, you know, is, is that you can see this sort of like AIDS epidemic in it, right?
That it was a very, you know, obviously at this time 1985, AIDS was becoming a major crisis that people were recognizing.
43:09
And you can kind of see that in the, the idea behind Underworld, you’re relegating a group of people who may have this condition.
They’re they’re mutated in some way.
And you can kind of see it as like an allegory to the AIDS epidemic, which I think is very interesting.
43:25
I don’t think that it goes far enough into that.
And I think that that’s part of the problem is that it just doesn’t quite lean into that idea of the drug and it wants it.
It like doesn’t quite know how to get bridge that gap between, you know, discussing the drug itself and the other parts of it that don’t really end up mattering all that much in the scheme of things.
43:48
I, I think they should have leaned into that, leaned into the dreams, and it would have been a more interesting experience and it would have made a little bit more sense.
Now, I do also think that there are two cuts to this movie.
I think there is a shorter cut and that’s the one that I watch, which is about 90 minutes long.
Which I think was like a 4846 hour and sorry hour and 46 or hour and 48 minute cut or something like that.
44:11
But because I watched dude the hour and a half cut.
Yeah, yeah.
The, the regular theatrical and, and so I don’t, I can’t quite say what the differences are between them.
I would guess not all that much to be honest with you.
However, I do think that they needed a little bit more here to just kind of cement the idea of the drug itself and and kind of go further with it.
44:38
It does seem like it’s just kind of truncated a little too much and could have used that X, you know, additional exposition to, to tell the story.
I also don’t really think that it comes, you know, it doesn’t make you really feel all that much about Nicole and Bane, right?
44:56
Like the the end of the film is sort of like, oh, that, you know, this unrequited love because, you know, Bane and Nicole seem to love each other, but Nicole now needs to live in the underworld because she’s tainted and you know all that.
The other funny thing that the film never discusses is Bane is injected with the drug, has no symptoms.
45:15
Nothing happens to him because he’s just a strong guy who’s like, I could just, I’ll just fight me through it, you know, maybe.
It’s like Total recall, and it’s all actually part of the simulation.
Yeah, it’s all his dream.
Yeah.
Yeah, it’s it’s that’s funny because like the film it that would have been probably more interesting because the film just does not make mention of it ever again.
45:35
It’s just like, oh, did that happen?
Can’t remember now we’re.
Just just imagine being running around going what the fuck did I do wrong?
What the fuck did I do wrong?
Yeah, fuck is going on there.
I, I mean, I do like, again, I do think it’s kind of an interesting movie, but it’s a little bit too bland for its own good.
45:57
And I just think that that’s probably why it’s not a common film or one that people have seen before.
It just lacks that something that like, you know, a Cronenberg film would have with better effects.
46:14
Now, you mentioned the one effect of the guy burning and like kind of blowing apart the the the doctor at one point when you can see he’s clearly like a robot or an animatronic thing, kind of look like Ronald Reagan, kind of quickly look like Ronald Reagan.
46:32
I was like.
Let’s go to Reagan.
I also love to during that too, The whole shootout, again, another seventies 80s action film trope.
There’s a fight going on.
Somebody’s got to run around on on fire.
Why are they on fire?
Does it matter?
46:49
They said hey, get get that guy that’s always on fire.
You want him for our?
Movies.
Now listen, somebody needs to run around on fire.
You’re going to make it like, look at all this you.
Know well another trope is they he takes like one machine gunshot and a car explodes for no reason just like there’s a guy hiding behind a car shoots at it like twice and it just you know blows into smithereens.
47:15
I’m not sure why, but yeah, that’s that happens in here as well.
It’s nice 80s way.
I do love the 80s too, because again, like every fucking film, somebody’s using an Ogg.
You know, it’s like, yeah, not just it’s not just die hard like they all have like somebody’s running around with Ogg.
47:33
Everyone’s got like an MP5.
There’ll be one guy like with an Uzi and a bunch of people and then B 40s.
It’s just great, man you.
Know.
That shoot out though, was so fucking wild.
Like it’s such an attacked on.
47:48
Like I feel like somebody was like, how do we end this?
And we had 20 minutes of a gunfight because because you watch the film, I think that’s where the ending is going to go kind of become.
48:04
It’s like Roadhouse.
So it’s like, what the Hell’s happening at the end?
Like, you know, he turns into this fucking cocaine fever dream because it’s like what the, you know, like.
It is true and it’s also interesting that they decide to just completely murder all of the the underworlds.
48:23
Underworlders, I think is what they call them because like, that really takes away some of the, like, take those of the movie.
Like, they don’t have any sort of comeback or anything.
Like, the one guy gets to stab that dude.
But other than that, like, they don’t get any sort of like, retribution.
48:42
And it seems like kind of a waste to have been following these underworlders and sort of now humanizing them.
And then all of a sudden they’re just like, yeah, we shot them all dead, you know, No, no retribution for them.
We’re just going to continue to follow.
Really unfulfilling Bane as he, you know, walks out the the underworld door and off into the distance as the they get, you know, and The funny thing about that ending is where he’s, you know, and he’s walking away.
49:12
It seems like that was something that maybe they haphazardly stumbled upon.
They were just like shooting and they’re like.
Whoa, do you see that?
Sun in the distance like that would be a great ending shot.
And they just got Larry Lan’s like, come on, walk to us like you’re the Incredible Hulk.
You know, like a walking in the distance.
49:29
I, I I.
I feel like that was like AI.
Was thinking like, you know, it’s like, you know, Breakfast Club, don’t you?
Yeah.
Yeah, that’s right.
Yeah.
I just, it’s a pretty cheesy ending for sure.
49:44
But yeah, that that shoot out is wild.
And see, like you said, seems like they were just not sure where to go from here.
But yeah, how do you like the noir elements to it?
Do you think that it fits in this movie?
50:01
It’s, you know, it’s again, this seems like something that Clyde Barker keeps coming back to.
Is this sort of noir esque way of shooting like sort of his detective type characters?
That’s also again, like not just the body horror, but like I was getting like, you know, the Cronenberg vibes because it’s like, yes, it can be good, but at the same time it’s like they don’t have the acting and the roundedness of the story to carry that.
50:32
It’s like a cool, like a cool stylistic choice that Barker has for his stories, but at the same time you don’t have the cast to do it.
It it doesn’t matter.
It’s like cool, that might be good, but it’s like, again, do you do I buy Larry Lamb as Roy Bain, like as a hard boiled guy, you know, looking for somebody?
50:53
No, like again, like Book of Blood was at least convincing.
You know, with like that noir part of like, you know, I’m looking for something here.
It’s like, well, I got a floor mat here.
Investigating what?
51:11
Now what if they had replaced him with Roddy Piper?
Oh, don’t you?
You.
Know like a they live style sort of lean into the cheesy.
Listen.
You listen here and you listen good.
Roddy Piper, one of my childhood heroes, says a wrestling fan.
51:31
You know, grew up watching WCW and Piper Hogan.
Awful matches, but I love them as a kid.
Horrible actor and he is one of the weak points out.
They live.
He’s iconic, but like at the same time, it’s like not like Piper’s doing the like, you know, it’s like, you know, it, it kind of.
51:51
Works.
No, it works because it’s sort.
Of time, No, it works with the same time though.
It’s like, even like somebody like Piper, this is like that.
This one definitely takes itself more seriously even and I think like, you know, again, to its detriment, it probably should have leaned in a little bit more because it it has all in the maybe this wouldn’t have been true at of the time, but it’s something that we now see it as sort of cheesy.
52:18
But it’s definitely quite cheesy in the way that it sort of plays up this very, you know, like I said, the dark wave soundtrack, all that stuff kind of adds to the epitome of what we consider like an 80s style movie cheese.
And film is pure 80s B film cheese.
52:35
Yeah, yeah.
And, and it’s, it’s not necessarily a bad thing.
It’s just that it doesn’t really seem to find the humor in itself.
It’s it’s, it’s plays itself very seriously.
Really.
Like I can’t remember a joke I think, I think any I think any joke in the was probably created in my own head when I was watching the scene.
52:57
Like I don’t think the film was cracking wise at all.
No.
Oh, there.
All right, so we got a.
John Carpenter does a Clyde Barker bet Clyde Barker’s John Carpenter’s this.
53:19
I think we’d be in for a good time.
That’s right.
Imagine that’s.
Right, imagine having the things body horror, you know, effects for this wonderful Kurt Russell.
That’s right.
I forgot to mention that the band Fer, which is just kind of a weird thing.
53:39
The band Fer in this film, they were known as Fer.
After they did this movie, they changed their name of the band to Underworld, which is just kind of weird.
It’s like they literally took the No, actually, no, it did not.
53:57
Actually, they actually got bigger after that.
They became more of like a house band rather than like the synth pop, synth wave that they were doing with Fer.
And they actually became a lot more popular.
And actually when I was looking up their albums for Underworld specifically, they’re highly rated.
54:18
People really like that house techno electronic music that they’re putting out under Underworld and not really so much as fur.
So it’s just very interesting that they they ended up changing their name to Underworld after the.
Movie The music for Trainspotting.
Yeah, they did.
54:33
Yeah, Yeah.
So yeah, very interesting just to the kind of the.
No, well I remember them playing when I was watching Run Lolo run back in my like film class in high.
School.
Oh yeah.
Yeah.
Run Lolo.
Yeah.
54:49
Who can’t say that you’ve never?
Seen.
Yep, I I have it actually, but yeah, you’re right.
So never.
Seen that?
That’s good, bloomer.
Yeah, I believe I have it, but I’ve never seen.
All right, so we got a rate underworld.
55:04
So on a scale of zero to 10, oh.
Yeah, but which by the way, OK, so at the end of the film, Nicole turns into fucking Zul motherfucker for what?
Is that supposed to be the dream part at the end of like She’s?
55:21
So I feel like she’s supposed to be her.
Her mutation, yeah.
Now her like you know, I can suck the soul a lot of men by, you know, turning as white as a ghost and.
That’s like her mutation is being able to do that sort of thing.
They they say like she can make a make your dreams reality but really she just like makes you explode or like spontaneous combustion.
55:44
Ripping your face off.
Yeah.
Yeah, but it’s the way, because she’s looking the entire film like this in her little tawdry dress.
And she’s got that, you know, Ziggy Stardust, David Bowie, androgynous.
She’s like the slutty Mary.
Not the Virgin Mary, but the slut.
56:00
You know, like the slutty.
Mary, look, yeah.
What’s going?
On so it’s like when she’s doing all of that, like all I can think of is fucking Rick Murray’s like the cake beeper you the key Mr. goals are because it’s like like she’s like the fight, you know, fucking gazooly fucking Ghostbusters like it’s.
56:20
Just.
So fucking ridiculous that part like.
And again too that.
Part too I think.
It’s just so weird.
I don’t know why it’s even in the film.
The film could have ended with the boss dying and then moving on.
56:37
And that’s like, Nope, hold on.
We got another 5 minutes to do of her melting the doctor away because we got to tie the head loose.
And so I don’t know, I was laughing.
I was laughing hysterically because it’s just, So what are we doing?
56:54
It’s just like, yeah, they were all in cocaine when they fucking did this.
They’re all you know, It’s just.
Fucked up and then and actually and Ghostbusters came out just one year before this, so you know, not too much of A coincidence.
57:12
So, but what would you give?
Underworld or Transmutations 5 out of 10.
It’s an enjoy.
Like, it’s much more if I’m comparing it to other George Pavlov films, this is much better than raw head racks.
57:31
It’s more coherent stylistically, how it looks, the story, everything is a billion times better than raw head racks.
It does look, you know, have some, you know, for, you know, a small budget of the film.
57:47
It does have like a good look.
He does have like a consistent like, you know, vision, like some of the shots are, you know, good.
And then, you know, soundtrack.
The overbearing at times when it gets to like the dark synth wave bits is, you know, really sets in the mood.
58:04
The ideas that Clive put together for script are interesting, but I think the film is mainly held back by the fact that it’s acted by like a fucking breakfast club, you know, bridge gathering of like actors that should never have jobs again because they can’t carry a tune and carry any of these characters.
58:32
I think if you had even slightly competent acting outside of, you know, Dental Melia as Doctor Savory, like he does Hammond up.
But he is enjoyable and kind of gives like a, you know, good vibe, you know, with his character.
58:50
Everything else is so stilted and poorly acted.
Like it detracts a lot from this film and makes a lot of the meandering and boring parts, like the first act that takes forever feel fucking interminable.
59:09
Yeah.
I if it had like, just better acting, I would probably say it’d be like 6.
It’s like such a the film’s got like really good ideas, but again, I’m just not realized.
So, you know, 5 outs on news.
59:26
I’m glad it picked up because like the first half, like third, I was getting ready to tap out.
I was like just so fucking bored.
But it it does pick up, but it doesn’t like pick up until like a point where you’re like this is good.
I see IMDb.
It’s got like a lot of people be like twos and ones it’s not that bad.
59:44
Yeah, I would rather watch this a million times over than raw head wrecks.
So.
Yeah, I, I would give it I, I think we can give it a six out of 10.
I, I don’t think it’s a terrible film.
I definitely ended up enjoying it towards the end.
I will agree.
You have to get through the first, you know, 30 minutes or so, which are pretty slow and pretty tedious to really start getting into the film itself.
1:00:08
And, and where the film actually lets you in on the plot for the for too long.
It does sort of like hold you away and kind of be like, you want to know the mystery.
Well, you can’t.
We’re going to intentionally keep it from you until you get further into this movie because it’s supposed to be so sort of a mystery.
1:00:25
I think that’s a problem.
Like it’s it doesn’t make the viewer want to get immersed in the movie.
It’s more so like, OK, will you just fucking tell me?
Because I’m get starting to get annoyed now.
Once it finally does and kind of gives you the back story and all the information about what it is, where it’s it’s a drug that you know, that’s where it gets interesting.
1:00:43
That’s really like, I want to know more about this drug and I want to know more about what it does.
And then the problem with the movie is that it doesn’t really tell you all that much more about the drug.
Like, it just kind of like, yeah, this happens.
They’ll tell you like, yeah, they have dreams, and they tell you that they mutate for some reason, but you don’t really get to see a whole lot of that.
1:01:04
And I think that’s another issue with the movie is that it doesn’t show you a whole lot about what it actually does.
So those are two big issues.
I do think that it has some interesting story to it.
Some beats are really cool.
I actually do like the first soundtrack for the most part.
1:01:23
It’s just sort of like dark wave gothic, you know, post punk aesthetic to it kind of lends itself pretty well to the movie and has some nice, you know, rhythms to it that kind of work along with the movie.
So I didn’t end up enjoying it overall and I liked it more than I apparently did 15 years ago when I first saw it.
1:01:44
I I definitely feel like I enjoyed it a little bit more now.
I don’t think it’s for everyone.
I do think it’s definitely better than Raw Head Rex.
It definitely has, whatever the case may be, it definitely is a more complicated movie than Raw Head Rex was.
1:02:01
Raw Head Rex is just like there’s a monster running around, like it’s like the extent of it, but this one is definitely has a lot more going on in it that it has to manage.
And just for that, I do think that it is somewhat interesting and entertaining.
And you can really see kind of Clyde Barker’s storyline shining through, even if they did make some modifications to change it around a little bit.
1:02:23
So I’m going to give it a six out of 10.
Fairly interesting.
Not recommended for everybody, but if you’re looking for something a little different, you may want to check out Underworld.
All right, so that’s our episode on Underworld.
Hope you enjoyed.
We’ll be back again with some more bobbing for Barker next week as we get into again another more contemporary film and Bob Barker’s Bob Barker’s Oh, no, I did it.
1:02:47
I I accidentally said Bob Barker on this one, Clyde Barker’s filmography.
And we have a few more episodes left until Halloween.
We may even have a special episode bonus episode before the end of the month.
So you should definitely TuneIn and keep checking back each week for more bobbing for Barker.
1:03:09
We are on pretty much any podcast app you can think of.
We’re on Apple podcast or home basis, Spotify, whatever you use, I’m sure we’re on it.
So subscribe, leave us a nice review.
We’re on blue sky and Facebook.
You can just search around there, Blood and Black Rum Podcast and we also have an e-mail address, [email protected] where you can write to us.
1:03:27
Let us know what you like, what you don’t like, what movies you want us to watch.
We’ll definitely take that into consideration.
You can also donate to us on our Patreon page.
Anything you donate goes back towards beer.
So we appreciate that in advance.
Again, we’ll be back next week with some more bobbing for Barker and another Clive Barker related episode.
1:03:43
And until then?
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